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"Perennialismo", Guénon-ismo, validità altre relig
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Inviato: Ven Gen 19, 2018 5:23 pm    Oggetto: Ads

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Sufi Aqa
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Residenza: Madhhab: Hanafi-Deobandi

MessaggioInviato: Mer Mar 18, 2015 3:30 pm    Oggetto: Rispondi citando

Ed ecco un'altra "bomba" sul cancro del perennialismo, che in Italia è paradossalmente portato avanti da persone che si rifanno (a parole) all'`Aqidah Ash`arita ed al Tasawwuf..

Ed allora ecco direttamente dalla bocca di uno dei maggiori esponenti contemporanei della scuola Ash`arita, il famoso sapiente giordano-palestinese Shaykh Sa`id al-Foudah, il chiarimento sulla natura di kufr delle dottrine perennialiste!

Dall'introduzione del fratello Abu Sulayman:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم​

Salamun 'alaykum,

innovations and heresies have unfortunately become more widespread in our time than it was the case in the past. Among the most dangerous one of these heresies is the belief in perennialism. This belief goes against the necessary knowledge of the religion and takes one completely out of the religion of Islam.

'Adnan Ibrahim is among those who are trying to spread this Zandaqah (heresy) and Ilhad (atheism) among the Arabic speaking Muslims (his videos are very popular on youtube).
(He has also other deviant views like his belief in evolution (and I mean here specifically the part of it which clearly goes against our religion which is the descent of humans), his belief in the annhilation of the [hell]fire (Fana` al-Nar), his rejection of the concept of Ijma' (consensus) and other such views.)

In the following video Shaykh Sa'id Foudah refutes 'Adnan Ibrahim's claim that it's not obligatory upon the christians and jews to follow that which was sent down upon Rasulullah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam (according to 'Adnan Ibrahim they can stay upon their religion even if the true religion has reached them [in it's correct form] (!) and they'll still attain salvation):


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Translation (first part)

there are two examples here about those who claim ijtihad in fundamentals of religion [usul al-din]. and he says, "i oppose certain absolutely-proven precepts [qaTyi'yat] and known to be necessary precepts of religion [ma'alum mina'd din bi'd darurah]. [he claims:] i am a mujtahid and i have the right to hold a different opinion.

---
i have selected two examples here. one from usul al-fiqh and another from usul al-din.

first is the saying of adnan ibrahim. and hasan ibn farhan al-maliki as i have understood from his (statements). and abu yarub al-marzuqi according to my understanding as it is clear from many of his writings. and many others who speak on religion in our time that:

the jew and christian, remaining on his own tradition (or faith) will attain salvation by merely accepting that sayyiduna Muhammad sallAllahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam is a prophet - even if he (jew or christian) does not follow the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. even if he does not follow [the Prophet] or deem his [the Prophet's] rulings to be binding upon himself [j or c].

in particular, in these exact words - is said by adnan ibrahim, and said so verbatim.

and others, their statements imply the above; to be fair (they don't say so explicitly) but their statements mean approximately the same as above; but the person who said so explicitly and plainly is the first (i.e., adnan ibrahim).

[continuing the mulHid's claim] even if he (J or C) does not follow RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam in any commandment - notice his explanation of the issue - (adnan ibrahim) cites the verse for his proof:

{ لَيْسُواْ سَوَآءً مِّنْ أَهْلِ ٱلْكِتَابِ أُمَّةٌ قَآئِمَةٌ يَتْلُونَ آيَاتِ ٱللَّهِ آنَآءَ ٱللَّيْلِ وَهُمْ يَسْجُدُونَ }

{ They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate (before Him). }

[3:113]

that is, people of the book, the jews and christians - all are not the same; among them are good and bad (maleeH wa `aaTil) - and by that it follows, that among them are those who prostrate (sujud) and recite the book etc. and therefore, these jews, christians etc. along with their remaining upon whatever they profess, they will attain salvation.

this is how he (adnan) derives evidence from this ayah.

---
however this is not the meaning of the aayah. this aayah speaks about those who are sincere and those who are not; those who are truthful and those who are not. but that does not mean that truthful ones among them will attain salvation regardless.

rather, they are obliged to follow our Master Muhammad SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam as mentioned in other verses as you know very well.

he uses this verse for his proof:

{ إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَٱلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَٱلنَّصَارَىٰ وَٱلصَّابِئِينَ مَنْ آمَنَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلآخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحاً فَلَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ وَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ }

{ Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. }

[2:62]

[adnan says:] this ayah mentions belief in Allah, and Last Day (judgement day) and did good deeds; and this verse does not mention belief in the Prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. the text of this qur'anic verse does not mention belief [iman] in the Prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

therefore these people [adnan ibrahim and others] use this as evidence to prove that it is not obligatory for jews and christians to bear faith in the Prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

it is sufficient for them, to remain on their christian and jewish religion and their sabian faith; but it is sufficient for them to say: "we will do good deeds and believe in Allah."

and they say:"they believe in Allah. and many of them do good deeds. therefore they will attain salvation on judgement day."

and what is more surprising [or shocking] than all this; i was flabbergasted at adnan ibrahim when he said concerning the council of christians, if i remember well in 1965, in vatican with the pope himself (present) or the council attested that: 'we accept that salvation is possible for (christian) denominations other than catholicism or non-christians."

[sh. foudah's interspersed comment:] the resolution passed by the council did not specify that muslims per se will also gain salvation. they simply said, salvation is "possible" for those who are not catholics or even those who are not christians. based on the case, that they are sincere and they do good deeds and they do not seek mischief on earth etc. this is the gist of the resolution of the vatican council.
[aH: probably the second vatican council; see pope's statement here.]

---
this brother [adnan ibrahim]; what does he say? he says something revolutionary. he says: "based on this giant step forward taken by christians, should inspire muslims to

[sh. foudah again interrupts with his own comments:] notice the vatican resolution does not specify muslims actually - it is a generic comment; and quite possible that they (the council) have a specific meaning in the context of their discussions, unlike that asserted by this man (adnan). that is, their intention/meaning might be entirely different but this man [akh=brother] is enthusiastic and in his eagerness says [adnan says]: "that we should also take steps to match them"

[sh. foudah:] what? is it some sort of political reciprocation? that they did thus, so we too should match them? and he [adnan ibrahim] says: "it is necessary for us as well to say that salvation is possible for non-muslims despite their remaining as non-muslims".

[sh. foudah:] in my life, i have not seen this kind of ijtihad, this kind of methodology. if a president or a minister [of government] or a journalist says such things, it can be understood. but you [adnan] claim that you are a mujtahid in fundamentals of religion and that its necessary aspects [Daruriyat] and speak like this? this is weird, very very strange.

------------
@4.55
------------
this discussion is not obscure for you [members of the audience] nor is it hidden from him [adnan ibrahim] because he has himself said: "i am certain that when i say such a thing, muslims will make takfir - rule me kafir." which means, he is aware of the danger of such a statement, but he may have a particular agenda. probably, he has a set objective [sh. foudah changes his mind] i won't say he has an agenda or not, but he is content with saying this over-simplified statement.

not to mention, his repeating this statement in conferences, talk-shows, debates, seminars etc. and those who heard this began clapping their hands. great. this is what he wants.

and we say what we are satisfied and convinced about. it is not necessary that his statements be applicable to us. and we cannot agree with him that his ijtihad [independent reasoning] led him to say these things. because ijtihad won't lead him to say such things. because there are proofs which are explicit and in far more plain words than that which he [adnan] misinterprets with his ridiculous understanding [or his stupid ideas] and flawed mind. and this guy is always making claims: "i am the smartest person on the planet" or "i read such and such a book in two hours" etc.

all of this is empty boasting [kalam faDi/farigh] and appealing to emotion [`aTifi]; it is possible that young folk, ignorant people might be impressed and excited. but people with some seriousness and sense [razanah] will say, 'come on. you are making bizzare claims. and nobody asked you for this.' i don't want to get into such [prob. personal criticism] things but i will present sharayi proofs [refuting his claims] from kitab and sunnah.

do you [adnan] say that you are muslim? and he [claims] he understand kitab and sunnah and read razi and zamakhshari and baydawi and quotes such-and-such linguists and derivation etc.. and he says such things which are inappropriate - and one of our brothers, shaykh bilal an-najjar refuted him on the aslein forums [see link here] and i refuted him on another issue.

Translation (second part)

[continued...]

i urge all of you to look at this once again, and do not be baffled by this kind of hogwash and flashy speeches. look Allah ta'ala has said:

{ وَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ ٱللَّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُوۤاْ أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَآءُوكَ فَٱسْتَغْفَرُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَٱسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ ٱلرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ ٱللَّهَ تَوَّاباً رَّحِيماً }

{ We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah's leave. And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and asked forgiveness of the messenger, they would have found Allah Forgiving, Merciful. }

[4:64]

notice what Allah ta'ala says next:

{ فَلاَ وَرَبِّكَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّىٰ يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لاَ يَجِدُواْ فِيۤ أَنْفُسِهِمْ حَرَجاً مِّمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُواْ تَسْلِيماً }

{ But nay, by thy Lord, they will not believe (in truth) until they make thee judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of that which thou decidest, and submit with full submission. }

[4:65]

about whom is this being said? about Nabiy SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.
who are addressed in these verses? all of mankind. and what is the proof?

{ وَمَن يُطِعِ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ فَأُوْلَـٰئِكَ مَعَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ ٱلنَّبِيِّينَ وَٱلصِّدِّيقِينَ وَٱلشُّهَدَآءِ وَٱلصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَـٰئِكَ رَفِيقاً }

{ Whoso obeyeth Allah and the messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favour, of the prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they! }

[4:69]

"and those who obey" is absolute and general, all-encompassing.

and it is not just those bear faith in Allah, rather those who obey Allah and His Messenger.

adnan ibrahim says: "it is sufficient to acknowledge that sayyiduna Muhammad sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is a prophet and remain on his religion (i.e., jew or christian). it is not necessary for him to obey any command or deem islamic law binding upon himself."

this is nonsense. "and those who obey" in the verse mean, those who are bound by the command of the Messenger sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam and defer to his judgement [during his worldly life].

{ وَإِذْ أَخَذَ ٱللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ ٱلنَّبِيِّيْنَ لَمَآ آتَيْتُكُم مِّن كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَآءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنصُرُنَّهُ }

{ When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. }

[3:81]

what does this ayat say? very famous and many scholars have explained it, imam taqiyuddin subki has written a dedicated monograph on this: [ta'azim wa'l minna] fi "la-tu'minunna bihi wa la tanSurunnah". whom is Allah ta'ala telling this. Allah ta'ala is telling this to prophets.

and they are told: suppose you remain on earth; and suppose i send Muhammad sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam in your time, it is obligatory on you to believe in him and aid him, support him. not just followers of prophets (like jews or christians) but prophets themselves [are bound to follow him].

those prophets themselves who did not alter the original religion; and they did not sell the verses of Allah for a cheap price; nor did they alter anything in Divine Books, inserting things from their own selves. and such prophets themselves, Allah ta'ala takes an oath from them that they will believe in him and support him.

so how is it possible for a muslim to say: that belief in the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam or supporting him in following the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam [ittiba'] or promulgating his law (shariah). all of this is not necessary. just leave him (non-muslim) as he is, he will attain salvation.

[sh. foudah implying:] following in the footsteps of the vatican council and reciprocating their move.

---
also Allah ta'ala has said refuting christians when they said: "we love Allah":

{ قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ ٱللَّهَ فَٱتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ ٱللَّهُ }

{ Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you }

[3:31]

notice: not just "believe in me" rather "follow me". and there are many such verses of the Qur'an.

{ وَقَالُواْ كُونُواْ هُوداً أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ تَهْتَدُواْ قُلْ بَلْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفاً وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ }

{ And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters. }

[2:135]

become jews or christians so that you are guided; tell them "rather we follow the religion of ibrahim, which is free from all corruption; and he [ibrahim] was not a polytheist"

notice this is followed by:

{ فَإِنْ آمَنُواْ بِمِثْلِ مَآ آمَنْتُمْ بِهِ فَقَدِ ٱهْتَدَواْ وَّإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَإِنَّمَا هُمْ فِي شِقَاقٍ }

{ And if they believe in the like of that which ye believe, then are they rightly guided. But if they turn away, then are they in schism, }

[2:137]

if they believe the same as you believe, then they are [rightly] guided. and if they turn away, they are being obstinate.

---
these are explicit verses, apart from many hadith that have been reported. among which, i will mention some and not read all of it:

look at this hadith about the message our Master sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam sent to heraclius (hiraql), the byzantine (roman) emperor. what did RasulAllah write? and this is a letter by RasulAllah and known to be authentic.

"peace on those who follow guidance. thereafter, i invite you to accept islam. accept it and you will be safe. [aslim, taslam] Allah ta'ala will give you a double reward. and if you turn away, then you will return with the sins of all arianist christians."​

this is what the Prophet ﷺ himself said. unless you say [al-iyadhu billah] the Prophet did not know about his own message.

the Prophet ﷺ addresses heraclius and orders to believe in him; he tells him you must become muslim - he doesn't tell him 'just acknowledge that i am a Prophet'. and if you don't accept islam, you will take the sins of arianists because you will be reason for their remaining misguided.

----
hadith of SaHiH muslim: "by He in whose Power the life of Muhammad rests, none from this nation [ummah] hears of me - whether a jew or a christian, and dies without bearing faith in that [message] which i was sent with, except that he will be in hellfire".​

[sh. saeed:] that is ummah "people" towards whom RasulAllah ﷺ was sent; ummatu'd da'awah not ummah al-istijabah (aH:the nation that accepted his message, which is us, muslims).

"that which i was sent with" meaning qur'an shariah,

----
@11.55
and this brother [adnan ibrahim] said, including those in hell and they will be taken out of hell. because when they enter hellfire, they will be cleansed and come out pure; and eventually brother iblis and brother firawn all come out clean and will be with sayyiduna Muhammad ﷺ in paradise (al-iyadhu billah). [note: sh.saeed is attacking the implications of adnan ibrahim's statement]

actually, he did not say they will enter jannah, but that is what is implied. of what he said: "when they are cleansed and purified from their sins, in one single day, he insists that 50,000 years is one single day, they will all come out of fire and Allah ta'ala will annihilate hellfire."

[sh. saeed asks:] then where will they go? and there is no statement in shariah that anybody will die in the hereafter. so where will they go? will they keep standing at the door of paradise, for example?

---
@12.42.
this won't go away. because the next stage will come when these concepts have [been introduced] and knowledge of muslims about their religion will have been all mixed up with misconceptions and will become commonly accepted and they will say: "yes they will enter paradise".

sure, he did not say it thus explicitly, but whatever he has said leads to that [conclusion].

when you compare and correlate these issues, it becomes clear and apparent.

---
{ قُلْ يٰأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنِّي رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ جَمِيعاً }

{ Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all }

[7:158]

notice in this verse, Allah ta'ala says: "o mankind" not just "o muslims" but "tell them: o mankind, i am verily the Messenger of Allah [sent] to all of you."

not just Prophet, but a Messenger - that is sent towards - not just that you acknowledge my prophethood, but you believe in my Message.

these are explicit qur'anic texts. it is not permissible for a muslim to say, "i repeated ijtihad, and it has now dawned upon me, that the belief of previous muslims that these are absolutes are not absolutes [qaTiy].

and this is deliberate attempt to distort the shariah [taHrif] and delirious rambling.

(Note: I only added the translations of the Ayat [and replaced the images with Arabic letters] and did not change other than this from the post of the brother, may Allah ta'ala reward him for this effort.)

In conclusione:

The ruling upon perennialists:

Shaykh Sa'id Foudah - may Allah ta'ala protect him - was asked concerning 'Adnan Ibrahim and whether he regards him as a disbeliever (" هل عدنان إبراهيم كافر عند حضرتك ؟"), so the Shaykh replied:

من قال إن اليهود والنصارى غير مكلفين بشريعة محمد عليه السلام فهو كافر وإن زعم أنه مجتهد مجدد

"Anyone who says that the jews and the christians are not obliged to follow the Shari'ah (law) of [our Master] Muhammad - peace be upon him - (i.e. to believe in him and to follow that which was sent down upon him), [such a person] is a disbeliever (Kafir) even if he claims that he's a Mujtahid and Mujaddid."

- end of the qoute-

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Sufi Aqa
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MessaggioInviato: Gio Apr 09, 2015 10:57 pm    Oggetto: Rispondi citando

Does the Qur’an Affirm the Validity of Practicing Judaism and Christianity? - Ustadh Salman Younas -
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MessaggioInviato: Mar Giu 02, 2015 1:40 pm    Oggetto: Rispondi citando

Citazione:
Are Non-Islamic Religions Valid? - Shaykh Jibril Fu'ad Haddad -
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Fratello, questo link che hai postato sembra dare ragione ai perennialisti..:


So there is 'Islam' in this wider sense, surrender to the will of Allah and also 'Islam' in the sense of the dîn of the revelation of the Quran and the tradition of Prophet Muhammad MHMD , which we follow, in order to be saved.

The Quran elucidates that Jesus and all other prophets were muslims who proclaimed the Divine message of Islam. They taught their peoples at different periods in human history, and although their messages did not contain the laws of today's Islam, their essential content was the same:

• Worship of one true God and submission to His will.
• Retribution in the Hereafter of both good and bad.

This fact has been misunderstood and ignored by all those who don't understand the notion of Islam in its wider meaning. Because - apart from being the name of (the teachings) proclaimed by Prophet Muhammad MHMD - Islam is a state of mind and a guide for action.

This is what is aimed at by the following quranic verse:

* O ye who believe! fear Allah as He should be feared;
and let not death overtake you except when you are in a state of submission (lit.: except that you are Muslims).
Sura 3, verse 102

So this religion is not a new religion, or a new message, but it represents the sum and summit of all the earlier messages and a correction of the deviations which had ocurred over time.

12. - A very good approach to open the mind of modern man to the spiritual truth of Islam, is the disposition of the metaphysical doctrines by Shaykh `Abd Al Wahid Yahya, René Guénon.

He analysed as no-one before him the mentality of the modern West which evolved out of the decadence of its religion, and provided the intellectual tools to uncover anti-traditional so-called spiritual movements.


In pratica quello che sta dicendo è che che è vero che chi non segue l'Islam si salva ma che il significato di Islam va inteso in senso più ampio, ovvero non come una Nuova religione, ma semplicemente come "sottomissione" . Quindi di fatto anche un Cristiano o un Ebreo possono definirsi musulmani, nel senso di sottomessi a Dio...
Inoltre fa l'elogio di Guenon che invece qui nel Forum viene definito un deviato..

_________________
'Abdullah bin 'Umar [...] said:"Muhammad used to fight against the pagans, for a Muslim was put to trial in his religion (The pagans will either kill him or chain him as a captive). His fighting was not like your fighting which is carried on for the sake of ruling."

“il 66 per cento della produzione mondiale di cereali è destinato alla alimentazione degli animali dei paesi ricchi” Ibid.


"Questa vita terrena non è altro che gioco e trastullo. La dimora ultima è la vera vita, se solo lo sapessero!" Al Ankabut 64

Quando ho cominciato ad usare la dinamite, allora credevo anch'io in tante cose, in tutte... e ho finito per credere solo nella dinamite.

"In verità dovrai morire" Corano (29;39)
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MessaggioInviato: Mar Giu 02, 2015 2:05 pm    Oggetto: Rispondi citando

[quote="Von Sor"]
Citazione:
It is narrated by Ibn Sallaam, may Allah Ta’ala have mercy on him – On the one who says, “I don’t know if the jews and christians will be tormented by the inferno upon being raised [on the day of judgment]“, ALL our shaykhs and their senior shaykhs have ruled that he has disbelieved.
Ma se tutti concordano che è un miscredente perchè c'è scritto (May Allah ta'ala have mercy on him)? Non è peccato chiedere perdono per i morti miscredenti??
—————————————————————————

Citazione:
How can it not be ruled so, for it is a denial of the Quran! Allah says in the Quran:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ

Translation of meaning: Indeed those who disbelieve [in Allah and His Messenger], from the people of the book, and the polytheists/pagans, they shall be in the fire of hell, therein to abide for ever; they are the worst of creation. [Holy Quran 98:6]


Comunque i termini among & from sono pò ambigui:
"Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.."
Perchè così sembra che la gente del libro e gli associatori siano una categoria ampia, e che solo una parte (quelli di loro che non hanno creduto) andranno all'inferno.. Sembra quasi dire che tra di loro c'è gente che crede e c'è gente che non crede

_________________
'Abdullah bin 'Umar [...] said:"Muhammad used to fight against the pagans, for a Muslim was put to trial in his religion (The pagans will either kill him or chain him as a captive). His fighting was not like your fighting which is carried on for the sake of ruling."

“il 66 per cento della produzione mondiale di cereali è destinato alla alimentazione degli animali dei paesi ricchi” Ibid.


"Questa vita terrena non è altro che gioco e trastullo. La dimora ultima è la vera vita, se solo lo sapessero!" Al Ankabut 64

Quando ho cominciato ad usare la dinamite, allora credevo anch'io in tante cose, in tutte... e ho finito per credere solo nella dinamite.

"In verità dovrai morire" Corano (29;39)
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MessaggioInviato: Mer Giu 03, 2015 2:51 pm    Oggetto: Rispondi citando

Von Sor ha scritto:
Citazione:
Are Non-Islamic Religions Valid? - Shaykh Jibril Fu'ad Haddad -
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Fratello, questo link che hai postato sembra dare ragione ai perennialisti..:


Sorella, tutti i link che ho postato affermano chiaramente che non ci sono basi per le dottrine dei perennialisti e che addirittura costituiscono kufr. Alcuni, come Shaykh Keller e Haddad, hanno un approccio più "leggero" nell'affrontare la questione perché parte del loro pubblico ha a che fare anche con perennialisti o proviene da un determinato retroterra (pseudo)-intellettuale, ed allora è come se volessero convincerli con ragionamento e dolcezza senza farli scappare, ma comunque con fermezza; per quale motivo tra tutti questi articoli selezioni solo queste parti (fraintendendole completamente) tentando di darle una "rilettura alternativa"?..

Comunque, no, non da affatto ragione ai perennialisti!

Citazione:
So there is 'Islam' in this wider sense, surrender to the will of Allah and also 'Islam' in the sense of the dîn of the revelation of the Quran and the tradition of Prophet Muhammad MHMD , which we follow, in order to be saved.

E' lo stesso discorso che fa pure Mawdudi, quando dice che - da un altro punto di vista ed in un senso più ampio e generale di "Muslim" - ogni creatura esistente è "muslim" ovverosia sottomessa al volere di Dio: pure gli atei!..

Ma mica significa che gli atei sono "Musulmani" nel senso proprio e tecnico di questo termine!

Ovviamente il senso di "Musulmani" che viene considerato quando si parla di coloro che verranno accolti in Paradiso è il senso proprio, non quello "lato"!

Altrimenti, all'inferno chi ci va, se "tutte le creature sono Musulmane nel senso di sottomesse al Volere di Dio"? Ma Allah ci ha parlato dell'inferno e ci ha detto che i kuffar vi resteranno per sempre.

Ed ancora, anche in tal caso non avrebbe comunque senso il perennialismo con le sue distinzioni tra religioni rivelate o meno: se si confondono questi due sensi di "Musulmano", tutti, pure atei e aperti nemici dell'Islam, pure Shaytan e Fir`awn (essendo ovviamente "sottomessi" al Volere di Dio) sarebbero dunque "Musulmani" e quindi andrebbero in Paradiso!...

Non-sense!

Wallahi sorella te lo dico con ""affetto"" e rispetto e come /[i]nasihah[i], non per azzopparti o "avere la meglio su di te": sei una sorella molto intelligente, ma in queste questioni il nafs di voler arrivare al risultato che una parte di te desidera ti occlude la vista ed inciampi su ragionamenti basilari pur di ottenere il risultato che vorresti.

Guarda onestamente dentro te stessa e chiediti se non stai rientrando tu stessa nello stesso identico comportamento di modernisti e riformisti che così aspramente critichi (e giustamente, ed anche molto bene ma sha' Allah)? Ovverosia coloro che cercano di modificare il Din a proprio piacimento per accontentare la società in cui vivono ed il proprio nafs.

Citazione:
The Quran elucidates that Jesus and all other prophets were muslims who proclaimed the Divine message of Islam. They taught their peoples at different periods in human history, and although their messages did not contain the laws of today's Islam, their essential content was the same:

• Worship of one true God and submission to His will.
• Retribution in the Hereafter of both good and bad.

This fact has been misunderstood and ignored by all those who don't understand the notion of Islam in its wider meaning. Because - apart from being the name of (the teachings) proclaimed by Prophet Muhammad MHMD - Islam is a state of mind and a guide for action.

This is what is aimed at by the following quranic verse:

* O ye who believe! fear Allah as He should be feared;
and let not death overtake you except when you are in a state of submission (lit.: except that you are Muslims).
Sura 3, verse 102

So this religion is not a new religion, or a new message, but it represents the sum and summit of all the earlier messages and a correction of the deviations which had ocurred over time.


Questa è pura e semplice dottrina islamica, mica c'era bisogno dei perennialisti per "scoprirlo"!.. Questo senso è quanto affermato nello stesso Qur'an..
Non è Musulmano chi non consideri Gesù come un Profeta di Dio - e come Musulmano!
Così come tutti gli altri Profeti di Dio (Pace su tutti loro). Ed i loro seguaci.
Tutti loro erano Musulmani.

Poi però col tempo gruppi di questi Musulmani lasciarono la vera fede e la dottrina dell'unicità di Dio, e si formarono così i vari gruppi come ebrei, cristiani, etc.
Ed in particolare, coloro che hanno rigettato il messaggio dei Profeti successivi; siano essi gli ebrei al tempo di Gesù (`alayhi assalam) che non lo seguirono, o gli ebrei ed i cristiani al tempo del Profeta Finale (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) che non lo seguirono.

Ma i perennialisti mica si limitano a dire che "Gesù era Musulmano" - se così fosse non ci sarebbe differenza tra noi e loro e "perennialismo" non vorrebbe dire nulla - loro affermano invece che il cristianesimo, l'ebraismo, l'induismo, il buddhismo, la massoneria e l'ermetismo e quant'altro (basta che siano abbastanza vecchi da farli passare per "forme tradizionali") hanno "validità salvifica" e che se anche una persona viene raggiunta dal messaggio finale, può comunque salvarsi.
Questo è kufr!

Allah ed il Suo Profeta sallallahu `alayhi wasallam ci hanno detto esattamente il contrario di questo.

Citazione:
12. - A very good approach to open the mind of modern man to the spiritual truth of Islam, is the disposition of the metaphysical doctrines by Shaykh `Abd Al Wahid Yahya, René Guénon.

He analysed as no-one before him the mentality of the modern West which evolved out of the decadence of its religion, and provided the intellectual tools to uncover anti-traditional so-called spiritual movements.


Questo lo dico pure io: Guénon può essere una lettura interessante nell'analisi della mentalità dell'Occidente moderno e nella confutazione delle varie sette occultiste-spiritiste-new-age.
Peccato però che oltre a questi aspetti ci siano nei suoi libri altre dottrine di kufr, ed i rischi del leggere le sue opere (ovverosia, far finire dei Musulmani nel kufr del perennialismo) sono ben più gravi e pesanti dei vantaggi acquisibili dalle sue analisi di spiritualismi new-age e di mentalità occidentali moderne.

Citazione:
In pratica quello che sta dicendo è che che è vero che chi non segue l'Islam si salva ma che il significato di Islam va inteso in senso più ampio, ovvero non come una Nuova religione, ma semplicemente come "sottomissione" . Quindi di fatto anche un Cristiano o un Ebreo possono definirsi musulmani, nel senso di sottomessi a Dio...


No, stai mischiando due punti diversi e separati.
1. L'Islam è la religione di tutti i Profeti, non solo quella della Shari`ah Muhammadiana. Punto di `Aqidah condiviso da tutti i Musulmani.
2. Discorso sui diversi sensi possibili di "sottomissione a Dio", da cui non deriva alcuna conseguenza sul senso "tecnico" ed effettivo di "Musulmano".

Von Sor ha scritto:
Inoltre fa l'elogio di Guenon che invece qui nel Forum viene definito un deviato..


Più che farne l'elogio sottolinea alcuni aspetti positivi della sua opera (più o meno qualsiasi autore ha aspetti positivi), ma le deviazioni nella sua opera restano, e lo stesso Haddad in altri passaggi dell'articolo procede chiaramente a smontare la dottrina perennialista!

Von Sor ha scritto:
Citazione:
It is narrated by Ibn Sallaam, may Allah Ta’ala have mercy on him – On the one who says, “I don’t know if the jews and christians will be tormented by the inferno upon being raised [on the day of judgment]“, ALL our shaykhs and their senior shaykhs have ruled that he has disbelieved.
Ma se tutti concordano che è un miscredente perchè c'è scritto (May Allah ta'ala have mercy on him)? Non è peccato chiedere perdono per i morti miscredenti??


Sorella, subhanallah, rileggi!

Il senso è tutto l'opposto di quello che hai capito: "may Allah ta'ala have mercy on him" è riferito ad Ibn Sallam, che afferma il takfir sui perennialisti!

Traduzione:

"E' narrato da Ibn Sallaam (che Allah abbia misericordia di lui):
"A proposito di chi dica:

"non so se gli ebrei ed i cristiani verranno tormentati dall'inferno una volta resuscitati [nel giorno del giudizio]",

Ebbene, TUTTI i nostri Shuyukh ed i loro Shuyukh senior hanno affermato/sancito che [[chi dica cià]] ha commesso miscredenza
".

Ovvero, il mero avere dubbio su tale punto di `Aqidah è considerato kufr!

Citazione:
Citazione:
How can it not be ruled so, for it is a denial of the Quran! Allah says in the Quran:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ

Translation of meaning: Indeed those who disbelieve [in Allah and His Messenger], from the people of the book, and the polytheists/pagans, they shall be in the fire of hell, therein to abide for ever; they are the worst of creation. [Holy Quran 98:6]


Comunque i termini among & from sono pò ambigui:
"Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.."
Perchè così sembra che la gente del libro e gli associatori siano una categoria ampia, e che solo una parte (quelli di loro che non hanno creduto) andranno all'inferno.. Sembra quasi dire che tra di loro c'è gente che crede e c'è gente che non crede


Appunto: coloro che non hanno creduto sono coloro che rifiutano il messaggio del Profeta Muhammad sallallahu `alayhi wasallam; coloro che hanno creduto solo coloro che - sebbene prima di allora fossero gente del libro, politeisti o pagani - hanno accettato il messaggio del Profeta Muhammad sallallahu `alayhi wasallam.

Puoi verificarlo in qualsiasi tafsir!

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MessaggioInviato: Mer Giu 03, 2015 9:37 pm    Oggetto: Rispondi citando

Citazione:

Sorella, subhanallah, rileggi!

Il senso è tutto l'opposto
Ops, effettivamente!

JazakAllah khair fratello!

_________________
'Abdullah bin 'Umar [...] said:"Muhammad used to fight against the pagans, for a Muslim was put to trial in his religion (The pagans will either kill him or chain him as a captive). His fighting was not like your fighting which is carried on for the sake of ruling."

“il 66 per cento della produzione mondiale di cereali è destinato alla alimentazione degli animali dei paesi ricchi” Ibid.


"Questa vita terrena non è altro che gioco e trastullo. La dimora ultima è la vera vita, se solo lo sapessero!" Al Ankabut 64

Quando ho cominciato ad usare la dinamite, allora credevo anch'io in tante cose, in tutte... e ho finito per credere solo nella dinamite.

"In verità dovrai morire" Corano (29;39)
Top
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